Kathryn on Radio Detox!

Listen to Kathryn on Fountain

Episode Transcript

(Transcription done with AI and slightly imperfect).

Speaker 1 (00:00.15)

Let's roll. Okay, Radio Detox right now, being recorded with me, Heather Larson, and a very new artist to the valueverse, Catherine L-

I'm so excited and we're at Antones right now in Austin, which is like a blues really cool venue and Exploring wise there's a base in the bathroom that I know it's a base case and I genuinely think that there could be a body in there But I didn't say that you look no, okay. I'm kind of See we're creating the Lord - you

Speaker 1 (00:29.292)

Give them more of Anto.

That's the whole idea. You know, this is a cool green room as far as green rooms are concerned.

my gosh, yeah. No, the standard piano, that's definitely a very nice old standard piano. And okay, look at that big amethyst on top.

Okay, that looks like a citrine right next to a giant Tito's bonk. Bridge map. And you're sitting underneath the legendary Antone's sign. We've got some of Ainsley's bandmates hanging out with us, chilling. And how many interviews have you done with anybody in the value verse? First one, let's do first, high five. A little backstory here. I have been staying in a house with you for a couple days, so we know each other.

On top of a Tito's Beb-

Speaker 2 (01:05.848)

This is my first

Speaker 1 (01:15.392)

a little bit better now. And you know, we're here for in Austin for Sats by Southwest. Yeah. The Independent Music Summit, which was yesterday and tonight. Antones, we've got a great lineup for Boostergram. Ball, we've got Ainsley, we've got Abel James, SOB and the Dang, Suzanne Santo, Henry Invisible, and someone is a surprise guest. Yeah, it's all the people. Honestly.

people all the fun thing. I'm just here to absorb through osmosis. Truly what everybody has been doing is incredibly inspiring and how Ainsley has been able to grow on this network I think is something that as an artist really piques my interest because when you're hitting a wall in the music industry of like okay I've been doing writers rounds I've been recording I've been releasing stuff on DSPs I've been networking and going to all these events and I feel like I've

I'm just getting tired, I'm hitting a wall and this offers a little bit of hope in a way.

This is the Nashville story of how much you work and you work and you work and you do all of these things and then crickets.

and crickets and I partly take the blame on that. I went to Belmont University. I graduated in.

Speaker 1 (02:26.843)

I don't know if we can completely blame you, but-

Well, you know, it's... But I think within Belmont they really teach you that the music industry is really cool, it's very flawed, but if you can make your niche you can do it. And truly the networking connections that you make at Belmont are very... They're very streamlined and all of the people that you're around want to do the same thing that you do. So I like to say that it's like Camp Rock for four years.

It's very fun, also imagine, okay, you've incredibly comedic because you've been like, everybody that's auditioned or gone there has been the best wherever they're from. And they've been full and I'm saying.

And you just take everybody and put them in this Belmont Petri dish.

Yes, you take well and I mean imagine the mental of that like you've been growing up From a young age of like my gosh like you're so talented blah blah blah blah dipping on like what small town you're growing up in so you've built this ego and then you go to Nashville You get squashed like it's very much like okay. I I can sing I can do my little jig on the piano

Speaker 1 (03:25.887)

And you

Speaker 2 (03:33.26)

But 10 billion other people can do the same exact thing and probably do it 100 % better. And it's like, okay, cool, I'm a diamond dozen here. So you try to figure out your niche and you try to meet the right people. And I mean, hey, that's life.

Oh yeah. Being young. So you're a young artist, you're fresh out of Belmont.

Yes, I graduated in May, and I immediately went into sale.

Did not find her star there.

Well, I was cold selling in the back of Target's AT &T. So you know those people when you walk past- was that? No. Well, because if you can imagine, you are going to Target for shampoo. You walk past the electronic department and you hear somebody go, hey ma'am, how's your day going? You're going to be like, fuck off. It's not something that you're expecting, nor something that you're wanting. And so-

Speaker 1 (04:05.964)

destiny.

Speaker 1 (04:23.854)

Which is how I feel telling people about value for value. Hi ma'am, how's your day going? Would you like to put your music on the internet?

Well, and I-

Yes, you feel like you're pitching them. I think is interesting from the sales perspective of the valuers of like sometimes when you're explaining this to someone it can feel like a pitch and not like, this is really cool.

Because we sound crazy sometimes. It would sound like, I just can't quite put my finger on it because it's such a complicated bit to explain that I feel like I've talked fast sometimes to be like, do this thing and let me steam over this part right here. I don't want to lose you and I'm going to get to the good part.

I mean, the good part is, we have to work backwards.

Speaker 1 (05:02.766)

Yeah, that's kind of how I explained it in March. I was like, this is okay. You know, my elevator pitch attempt is okay, but, you know, getting people on the value verses is definitely more of a long game and saying like, hey, put your music here and then who knows what's going to happen. Exactly.

Well, I think, I don't know, sales definitely foster that type of like, you get rejected 70 times a day for 10 hours a day for 7 days a week. It's very much like, I remember calling my mom like my first two weeks, probably every single day.

Wait, were you on commission? Yeah.

It was a great discussion, ladies.

Just like working in music. You get told off all the time and you don't make any money. It's perfect conditioning,

Speaker 2 (05:44.502)

You're perfect, Shane. I mean, it was the perfect amount of... Okay, you're gonna go into this environment and you just need to have such a positive mindset and such like a... You have to... Because they were teaching us to go for two no's. So like, say I ask you question, you're like, no, fuck off. I go, okay, well, how's your day going? No, fuck off again. Okay, awesome, I'm gone.

Do you just want to keep thinking?

Yes, you want to keep them engaged. And I mean, you're taught a bunch of different psychological things of like how to read a person, what type of quote unquote animal they are, and like how to like redirect an object.

I'm like, am I? Now that you've lived with me for a days. like, a tiger.

for a couple days. There's a bull. tigger. But yeah, so they're in different categories and within the first 30 seconds of meeting someone you have to basically assume what animal they are. And do the objection that you think would get them to the point that you want them.

Speaker 1 (06:44.142)

So long story short, sales didn't work out. You so. If you're gonna do sales, you have to have a passion. But I probably could help you with me.

It definitely did, in multiple different ways. mean, hearing no that many times, you kind of go, okay, you need to figure out who you are and take that at face value.

no experience like that in Belmont.

You have to get a degree. mean my stance on college. I'm incredibly grateful that I went to college

yeah I am too sometimes. Then I look at my clothes and...

Speaker 2 (07:17.292)

Yeah, well, see the thing is, I will fully admit that I have amazing parents who were able to pay for my school. So that is something that I'm so I'm excited. Well, I'm grateful that I have my degree. But my thing about college, it's something to fall back on.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:31.8)

Fall back on, What'd you get? Some kind of trade degree training certification? And then fall back on for all of us.

But something to fall back on for sure. I think college, in a way, and work with me here, I think it's an extension of four years past high school that you can use to develop your mental, your physical, your emotional. And it's in a controlled environment around people that like the same things as you do.

You should build your confidence. You should be doing challenging things and having your confidence build and also getting swashed like a bug. Coming to Nashville, being around other kids, if it's not that experience specifically, everybody should get a little bit of a humbling. I don't want to humble you because I actually want to build you up because this is, so I first heard about your music, Hating the Value verse from Ainsley, of course, because I follow Ainsley on Nostra, obviously, as we're at the Ainsley show tonight. And

Yo yes, very much so.

Speaker 1 (08:28.31)

I did not, putting everything together was so crazy for this special weekend that we're having here for Value for Value that I just didn't have time to listen to the song and forgot about it. And then we were in the minivan.

Discover

And finally somebody put the song on and I got to hear Socrates. So how many times in my life have I heard the artist's song for the first time with the artist sitting next to me, period, let alone a minivan driving around Austin, know, with the maps going and...

such a great experience too.

Is that weird to have to be sitting next to somebody and having them go, I'm hearing your song for the first time and looking at you at the same time?

Speaker 2 (09:10.87)

There's a little bit of like, well I hope that she's not judging me. And obviously there's that insecurity as an artist of like, is my art good? Do people like it? So.

And yes, yes. Yes, judging you. Yes, your art is good. Yes, people like it.

So, see, and that's the validation that I really need to hear for this art because this is the first record that I've really done in an R &B style.

Okay, so I was going to ask for clarity about that because, okay, first of all, you're a white girl. And I am also a white girl in in a, racial family. But, I didn't expect all that. Where does that come from? The left toe or what?

yeah, so...

Speaker 2 (10:02.382)

I think it comes from growing up listening. My mom's favorite band was Boyz II Men. So growing up I listened to... I listened and I grew up on kind of the 90s blues almost.

voice to me please

Speaker 2 (10:22.402)

That's a good stuff. And I think listening to that and combined with musical theater, which teaches you a lot about belting and breath control in that way. think leaning into that plus the... That one...

Can you just belt one of Jazz? Um. felt something.

Uh, cause I'm there. Yeah, that song is really good in Hamilton. I see. I love history and I love musical theater. So Hamilton. But. Soul. Soul. All of that's to say, the best compliment that I got when somebody heard this song for the first time, they literally, they look at me and this black woman in her forties, she goes.

Hey, get a little ham with some flavor.

Speaker 1 (10:51.758)

That was a good thing.

Speaker 2 (11:06.795)

so you season your chicken.

I paused. If you know, you know. If you know, you know. This girl seasons her chicken. Yeah, we can eat at your house. Yes. Because you can't eat at everybody's house, but you can eat at Kathryn's house because the girl seasons her chicken. That's the best compliment I've ever heard someone give to a singer.

Thank you.

Speaker 2 (11:18.357)

It's like, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (11:23.758)

You can't

Speaker 2 (11:31.106)

perfect

Speaker 2 (11:35.05)

Yeah, it was kind of the moment of like, okay, so this the sap. That's respect. It was definitely respect.

is.

That is respect for the black community saying yes, we hear you. And... You sound good. You're not trying to be a poser. I think... You got it going on. You can sing. For the arc...

I'm kind of worried about delving into more R &B is like I was doing a lot of country I was writing a lot of country kind of more pop type things and what I was releasing I wasn't promoting because I as an artist didn't love the music and also I mean that's kind of the case old story of you don't like what you're writing or like you've listened to it enough times about the time it comes out like you hate it

That's how it works though. mean that's marketing too. By the time everybody starts hearing about it, you're like, I am so sick of this. I've been at this for six months. Why do they care now? Damn it, damn it, damn it.

Speaker 2 (12:26.702)

It's like, play that. So I released a few on Spotify and Apple Music. I released an EP, which was really cool. I had a great experience recording that. It was my first time being in a recording studio. And I just remember going in. What was this? This was, ooh, my first time. This was probably 2020. Okay. Because I recorded this in Tucson, Arizona. Yeah. Not even close to veteran. I'm still working my way up. I think.

there.

And I think that's the value and the hope that I see is that as an artist, isn't a place that, this isn't a platform that is super saturated yet. Like it's a platform that people are actively looking through and combing through and looking for new music versus Spotify, like 150 songs get released.

to

Speaker 1 (13:28.838)

It's being a lazy consumer, passive consumer of music versus, let me get on Wave Like and see what's new today. Let me get on there and see what the number one song is today. It changes every afternoon. Right now, the time we're recording this on the 16th of December is Matt Huckweck at Number One and maybe a few of our artists that are playing Antones tonight are in that top 40 trending list. Maybe we're a few zaps away. Hey, you never know.

No.

And that's the fun thing. of course, we're obviously, you know, you've got one song and obviously we're playing it on Radio Detox and we're waiting for the next song.

really excited about the next song that I'm releasing too because as the first Socrates, that sound that we created, my producer and I, he made the beat and he was like, hey, so I made this beat in three, four, it's kind of an experimental beat. I know that we've been talking about like you doing more R &B stuff. So do you want me to send it to you? And I was like, yeah, sure, let's go for it. And one night I literally was sitting in my apartment and I played the beat and I just started singing over it. And I was like, okay, this actually, this sounds good.

Like I can write a melody over it and I can do like a little jazzy thing, runs and build in the things that I love instead of kind of following a certain model that I know would do well.

Speaker 1 (14:51.468)

Yeah. And... You don't have to do that.

Exactly, like you don't have to follow a certain model.

No model, no recipe. Real creativity is coming back in.

And it was kind of the moment of like, okay, this is vulnerable because for the first time I feel like I'm putting myself in my record and like I'm writing from my perspective.

This is a new generation coming in the value. I'm recording. Hi. Yeah, this is a new value verse artist. I'm recording here from where they do talk to you. Yes. I have a whole bunch of show notes for you for tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:17.657)

No!

Good to meet you in person.

Speaker 2 (15:25.75)

met. yes, we'll be talking later.

Thank you. You're so welcome. That's exactly what I was... Yeah! Bro, where do you want to sit? So, he's gonna do some stuff with me. Yeah, let's see. You wanna find a room over there? Awesome. Yeah. No, and that was Parker. Parker's super cool. He does so many different documentaries.

Yeah, for people listening, for Parker Worthington just walked in with a camera on out of her.

Yes. And I think also for me, I met Ainsley a few months ago through networking. I met Ainsley a few months ago through networking and kind of knowing mutual friends. And we met and I started doing content for her because my background is in social media. I was doing some videos for her with one of our mutual friends.

Then I heard her conversation with her mom about the value verse and kind of Bitcoin. And I was like, wait, they know something. Like they know something I don't. And I was like.

Speaker 1 (16:31.458)

They know something that most people don't.

that most people don't. And I was like, wait, that actually sounds kind of cool. Like saps, zaps, what type of different language are you talking in? Like what? It's like alien language, not French. I was like, this is very, this is interesting. I want to learn more about this. And so I was helping a fundraiser event concert that Ainsley performed at, doing kind of just organizational different things, making sure artists were in the right spot. So she-

Alien language.

Speaker 1 (16:58.958)

paying you to help her with social media? No. You're just kind of like chilling, volunteering? Social media. A lot of times that's how you get your foot in the door. It's funny though, because that is, that I've hung out with you for a couple of days and you and I are just harped. And Derek Ross is also harped on social media content creation for Ainsley, who's admittedly not good at it. So it's rare to find an artist who's like, I'm good at this and I want to do it and I like it. I'll just do it for free to get my foot in the door. Like, it's cool. Like, cause most artists are like,

Isn't that the story for so-

Speaker 2 (17:26.743)

I think that goes back to my parents are both entrepreneurs. They've both kind of had to stick their foot in the door and I just, I learned that mentality from them of like, be grateful for every opportunity that you're given, never take it for granted. Like never take it for granted and always stay humble and kind. And that's, I think the main thing is.

I remember like, put on those earths to do this, you literally had all these other stories. Like, she was put through it so she could be a musician. To learn how to be told no, to learn how to stay humble.

Well, I am I admittedly I have not had a hard life like truly I have two parents were still together I grew up in a good home They paid for me the old school like I don't have the classic like starving artist story. I don't

Because we want that to go away. want the starting artist's story to go away. Yeah. Like, I...

And I believe in that too, and I think with this type of model, it's able to go away. But with the current model that we have in the music industry, it's novel. Because ultimately, it makes you reliant on the people above you, and it makes you reliant on other people essentially telling you what you should be doing. What I've seen in the value of Burz is multiple people working together on a ground level, helping each other out, which feels more grassroots, feels more...

Speaker 2 (18:42.186)

like a community and a team rather than a higher up or I mean, I guess not a higher up, like, yes, it's and I think the best example that I can see of that is, I mean, we were having problems with the fountain app yesterday and Ainsley was able to literally text the developer of the fountain app and said, Hey, so we're having problems with X, Y, and Z. And this isn't just Ainsley. Like you can literally connect with all of these different people.

surprising to have that lipstick.

Speaker 2 (19:09.926)

It's so small that you can, if you're having any problems, questions, comments, concerns, there's five different people in a moment's notice that are willing to help you. as an artist in a space that comes from a very kind of like scarcity mindset of I'm going to take as much as I can for me and y'all are on your own, like elbows out and.

Which

Speaker 1 (19:31.212)

I don't know, it's probably not coming out. I can hear Suzanne Santo playing worried. this is so cool.

I find it cool, I woke up this morning, came downstairs and had this great conversation about Bitcoin and all these different things and I remember walking downstairs and like falling down on the bed and looking at Ainsley and being like, I love this, I love this so much, but I'm very tired, I live by myself. Because it was the fullness of waking up, being able to have that type of like intriguing conversation and then being like, okay, it's still morning, it's 11am.

We started energy really early in the morning. Me and Val woke up this morning. We were going at it.

But it's fullness. like you're talking about new ideas and that's very cool. And in a space where there's not a lot of new things happening, very cool to see that.

You're serious. We turned on the fire hose and know like the Pistello's

Speaker 2 (20:23.246)

It's a new experience.

Speaker 2 (20:27.95)

Oh, and I remember, so we met and then after this fundraiser, Ainsley and I kept chatting and I talked to Ainsley and Julie about like, hey, I really find what you're doing interesting. I'd love to learn more about it. they invited me over to their beautiful home, which as I got there, they were like, thank you so much for driving the 30 minutes. I was like, no, trust me. I promise I'm from Wisconsin where it's a 30 minute drive everywhere. So I pick you promise it is not, it is not a big thing.

They

Speaker 2 (20:57.858)

They were so great about how they were walking me through this because it didn't make me feel like I was an idiot for not knowing it. It was like...

Most people don't know this stuff. There's no point in snobbery or making anybody feel like an idiot because we're still figuring it out as we go. Breaking things daily, as you mentioned, means they're doing the Fountain takeover yesterday and breaking and then emailing heads of Fountain to be like, my God, what's happening? We'll be okay because we picked up the songs. What's happening? You're froze. And it happens and we're just kind of flying by the seat of our pants. And isn't that just music?

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:35.234)

Very much so. Very much so. I think this space is very interesting and I'm just still trying to kind of like figure out this and Primal and Al and there's so many different wallets and lightning and stats and it's a micro Bitcoin and what?

The dominoes will be...

Speaker 1 (21:52.014)

And three months from now you'll have a 75 lightning wallets, all the Nostra apps. All the stuff. Yeah. And then you'll be like, and it's still like, let me try some more because that's kind of where the space is at right now. Where we're all just going because there's a lot of choice in that Nostra. There are a lot of Nostra apps out there.

Yeah

Speaker 2 (22:11.214)

tag Ainsley in for like 30 seconds because I really need to use the bathroom. Okay.

I have a giant water bottle that I always carry with me and I drink it five a day, therefore I spend a lot of my time in the bathroom.

At four of them.

Speaker 1 (22:26.542)

That's to be high baby, that's a good alternative. This has been an amusing interview so far. Anytime I do live interviews, anything Canon will- Hold on, I was like, oh are we recording? Yeah, we're still, we're recording. had Adam walked in and I met Adam while we were recording. Oh that's awesome! Yeah, we have walked in and so there's a little background noise there. Yeah, love it. I heard that, just like locked myself in someone's office and was going and making my obnoxious warm up noises and I was like, oh God, I'm home. Cause I can hear them so well.

and I can't tell if they can hear me on stage or not, but you know what? It's part of the ambiance, Yeah. So you and I, we go way back to July. I don't know.

July of last year, yeah, when was our first interview together? It was July this year. July of this year. So like five and a half months ago, we spoke for the first time on Redox. You helped me kick off the podcast. I feel like I've known you for longer than that though. I've had that effect on TV. I love it. No, yeah, cause I mean, after the first interview that me and you had together, it felt so easy and so natural in a way that a lot of other interviews I've done haven't. so.

That's crazy that it was only this year. I would have thought that it was in February of you've been doing this value-averse thing for what, 18 months now? Yeah, long time. Actually, just about a year and a half, because it was July of last year. So just about, what's 12 plus 6, 18 months? Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. think a year ago right now, you were doing a show with Just Loud in Minneapolis. Yeah. first ticketed concert. It was. my gosh. I forgot about that. That was my first ticketed show. Yeah. And so this is kind of the year anniversary of that. my It's really cool. High five. Thank you. The value-averse alive and well.

The year later, you're gonna break it? We're breaking it and then hope maybe next year we'll go back to First Avenue and we'll be on the main stage at First Avenue. Oh, hey. That'd cool. Okay, so we're on the main stage at First Avenue last year. You were on? The 7th Street Entry. The 7th Street Entry, okay, cool. 7th Street Entry was really cool, but Mike was like, hey, do you want to warm up in the First Avenue green room? And I was like, what do you take me for? Of course I do. Do you have to ask? Yes, of course. And so he was really nice because it was, we did the whole,

Speaker 1 (24:26.53)

They snuck me out the back because I was already in my show clothes. so it was also Minneapolis in December. So it was freezing. And I just have, I don't have any tights on. I'm just wearing a skirt. So they snuck me out the back. And then we went in through the main entry of first Avenue. And then Mike took me into the, actual green room. And I have some videos of me just like from warming up and getting my, accident. From my album.

first lot of experience. Yes. What's your takeaway from last year? Something that really stands out for you that you experience or you like something you bought? I think it's been really cool that I've kind of become the guinea pig for a lot of this. It's not even something that I really intended, but you it was, you're right. It was the interview that we did for my album that hasn't come out yet or the album hasn't come yet out yet, but the interview has and it's come out in increments. And then

you know, being one of the first people to test out the fountain radio feature. know, rabble actually said something really nice about me on the NOSTA rising podcast. said, you know, Ainsley has kind of been, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said something to the effect of Ainsley has demanded more of the space than we've really been ready for yet. So she's kind of forced the rest of us to step up our game because she needs things that we don't.

have yet, but we want Ainsley and we want her fans here. So stop it. Yeah. And so it's just been really lovely to I try really hard to be a difficult person to work with, but everybody's been working. I know I'm so difficult, but

You know, everybody's been really lovely about trying to accommodate me and how we get my fans over here who are eight to 18 year old girls who, you know, aren't really the typical Nostra Bitcoin audience and how do we make it a safe and fun and lovely experience for them that their parents are going to get on Nostra and be like, what is Nostra and why is my daughter on here? Yeah. So becoming the guinea pig and really being able to advocate for that as a young girl who

Speaker 1 (26:21.846)

did grow up on the internet and who did accidentally see bad things on the internet every once in a while. It's like really being in on the ground level to help set a precedent and create what Instagram and Facebook and everything else should have been is something that really stands out to me. Yeah, we have the chance to make history here or I try it. Yep, exactly. We go down swinging and as you know, you can't say we're not trying. You can't say we're not trying. People have heard the previous podcast. Yeah.

Especially the X-List album previews. don't think all the- I think so. Outland Special. Outland Special. Can't say I'm not trying. Yeah. No, it's not. All the legal hindrances as to why the album is not out yet. all the music rights kind of stuff. We're working on it. We're figuring it out. For sure. I need to hijack your interview. Well, I don't want to suck up your energy before the show. No, you're good. I actually probably need to go keep getting ready for soundcheck. Everybody, it's been- Oh, thanks for listening to me. Yeah. All right. And Katie?

to you.

She takes her earpieces and she goes. Yeah, so Katie's got one song in the value, but she mentioned you had a producer. I do. that's a wallet split.

Yes, he is. actually knew. Well, so there was that moment of like, Hey, so I'm going to put this song out on a different platform. It's not going to be Spotify. It's not going be Apple music. And I want to have, yeah. It's like, it's not going to be something that you know, but my friend Ainsley was able to make a lot of money in one year.

Speaker 1 (27:29.343)

to it.

Speaker 1 (27:42.542)

You know how to be word yet. It's not

Speaker 2 (27:56.724)

off of

You're on!

on Waves Lake.

Fountain right now. You're in independent music. You've got to get the Fountain app and you got to download Fountain and then you look up Catherine in music.

The first person that you look up is Katherine K-A-T-H-R-Y-N. The only correct way to spell it? Yes. I think, well, the precedent that I'd love to talk about is what I wanted to do with my producer because it wasn't a work for hire because I didn't pay him for the B and essentially on DSPs, it would be a 50-50 producer split because you're not doing a work for hire. So...

Speaker 1 (28:21.087)

Socrates.

Speaker 1 (28:42.76)

recording is freaking expensive

Recording is very expensive. And the producer that I work with, he's one of my best friends. We went to Belmont together. He's dating my best friend. Yes, he's family. He truly knows what he's doing. He's a very talented guy. He's kind of more into the niche of like rap and does a lot of rap beats. So I'm trying. I cannot rap. can, I can really try. Yes, I can do like that.

And it's

Speaker 2 (29:14.06)

like all the fun stuff, but I think I have ADHD. So my brain goes all the different places at the same time.

It's okay, everybody will sing it.

Going back to the precedent is what I really wanted to do on this app and what I was talking to Anzali and Julie about is by releasing this as a song where not only is it split 50-50 between me and my producer, anytime you zap the song Socrates, even here, he gets half of that as well. I think that's incredibly important to set the precedent of if you're not going to pay somebody for the art, you are going to pay them in a different way.

Everybody eats, everybody rises, and it's not a dog eat dog. Everybody eats. And I think it's very cool that we're able to set precedence on a new app and say, okay, this is what we're going to do, and this is how it's going to be. We're setting the culture, which that's such, like I get chills because it's such a big thing to be able to have. It's a big thing and it's a big power and it's a big responsibility in a way of like.

Everybody eat!

Speaker 1 (30:07.074)

setting a culture.

Speaker 2 (30:19.534)

Okay, the first few people that come in here and really do think what you do is going to make a difference for the next person. And oh, 100%. That's how it goes.

Yeah, we don't make some mistakes. As we go, but yeah, we're, cause like the first time I did the podcast, I didn't know anything. don't know. I put myself in the split. I'm like, what do I ask? What do I do for this? Right. And so then I figured it out and I went back and I fixed the wall and split it. Cause like the cultures are already being set.

Yeah, it's and that's so cool for so many different ways. mean, I was talking with Derek and Anza yesterday about Derek Ross, a very cool guy, very cool. Not the CEO of Nostr, but the unofficial CEO of Nostr. He was like, you can't keep telling people that. Do you know the account, like the climate for CEOs right now?

Derek Rowe.

Speaker 1 (30:59.95)

Not the CEO of this.

Speaker 1 (31:05.23)

Tell me I had to stop saying that.

Speaker 1 (31:11.342)

The poster's getting big enough that I can't fuck around anymore. Yeah. But that's what- Yes, Darryl.

We were talking about how it's so revolutionary that Anze is able to play my song on essentially a radio in Fountain. I'm able to get money from that instantly and turn around and literally the next song I'm able to send sats to a song that I really enjoy. Instantly. The song came out on the 12th.

Only on the 12th. Yes. So four days later, can I ask what you have made? Have you booked? I have. have 20 bucks now because at the moment, Bitcoin at the moment. I will look. is at the start. It's Monday the 16th of December at 424 PM. We're at 106, 245 right now. So they were slightly going to 20 bucks. If you made that right now. I would.

of over 20,000 sets and well, just 25.

Speaker 2 (32:06.272)

I've never made that right now and and and and we think about that's only half so that's only half the song has made 40 bucks 40 some bucks four days and four days

We'll put a song on Spotify and they'll make that five years.

They don't make that in five years. truly. Yes, many songs. mean, Ainsley will talk about how she had over 20 plus songs on Spotify and wasn't making even 500 bucks. You can't like.

don't need many songs.

Speaker 1 (32:36.366)

You can't even buy self dinner. Also, you're waiting for a check to come, which is the other kind of shitty. And it doesn't matter if you want to want or need to use that money today. The fact is you can if you want to. It's in your wallet. It's in your wallet. By wallet, I mean Bitcoin wallet. I'm going to, I'm always concerned that I am speaking too much in jargon on the podcast.

Yeah

So I'm trying to dumb it way down because with Bitcoin at 106 right now, there's going to be renewed interest in people going, especially after we did the Independent Music Summit yesterday, shout out to ATX Musicians, a big organization that helps 6,000 musicians here in Austin. I can't wait to meet you all. Yeah. Because there's an alternative. I talked to Patrick Bukta yesterday. He came out to the summit. He's the CEO of ATX Musicians.

And he said, you know, I just want to show them there's an alternative. There's, there's another way to earn from your art. And he's very interested in independent

I had a great talk with him because at the end we were giving out like Bitcoin cards and part of it was you have five dollars of that Bitcoin. As Teco card. Shout out to As Teco because it was really cool seeing people's faces of like, okay, this is real money. Like I have have four thousand sats like four thousand and sub change. So that's in my fountain app that I just created.

Speaker 1 (33:46.766)

as TECO.

Speaker 2 (34:01.208)

that I can now turn around and support this event, not knowing, not coming in with any knowledge, any experience working the app, and now I'm able to be onboarded and spending in the same day. Like, that's revolutionary. And he was like, this is very cool for artists to come in and be able to see this and see what's happening.

Like this is how it works. mean, it's, it's, it's, there's a bit of a learning curve, you know, like, okay, what is 5,000 sats? Okay. That's equivalent to a little more than five bucks at this moment. That's going to fluctuate. That's going to change. if you'll keep it there, know, if if anything, Rebecca, she would tell you, she earned X amount of sats a year ago in Minneapolis. And then that is worth a whole shit ton more. You know, if you don't touch that wallet and you don't care, thousands of dollars more right now, like then it's essentially doubled this year.

Even since we did Sarah J, that culture shock in Phoenix, I think Bitcoin was around 50,000 that day. And so that day for playing 30 minutes of her original music, I think she made just over $700. So yeah, her husband playing on our stage, examining Meade's warehouse, you they're just throwing up a little bit about yours. That's why.

like that.

You doing what you do best, what you love made 700, let's say 700 that day. Okay. Is that a total of the exact amount? So today that was more than $1,400 if they never.

Speaker 2 (35:24.05)

that. Which I think the turning point for me kind of deciding to get invested in this space and deciding to like fully kind of commit is just understanding baseline how Bitcoin works. Like baseline, baseline, baseline.

I'm you're about when you started learning about how Bitcoin works. What was a misconception that you had? You got it. Burst your bubble because I love hearing this from people because it's enlightening for me.

Because my introduction to Bitcoin was the NFT's craze like a few years ago. With like the apes and all of like...

the fun things? That was not a great moment. Anything with the internet.

So like, you know, like a dumb person, individual.

Speaker 1 (36:06.466)

I'm not,

And honestly, dumb isn't the right word. think I was going to say dumb kid because I think at the time I saw it as, this is an investment that like the older generations don't know about yet. Like this is my little like cool thing that I get into. I'm smarter than you. But also of course, goes back to only child, goes back to all of those different things. It's like I've gotten better at it as I've gotten older.

It's least the only child thing.

Speaker 1 (36:37.006)

chamber is only children. mean, kind of like y'all left me the house this afternoon and I was so happy because I had some peace and a silent Uber ride here and that was gorgeous. It was wonderful. And then I didn't realize I was here. I was living in my own little world. was like, I'm not getting out of the West End. And the driver looks at me and goes, this is where you're supposed to be. And I'm like, I look out to the left. like, oh shit. I was off of my own little world. don't know. My friends were texting me and I was just, I don't know. My mind went somewhere, but like that's an only child for you.

And it's, live in your own bubble. And I think when I was learning about crypto, I was under the understanding that crypto and Bitcoin were like of the same, like they were different stocks in the same type of field. different.

And I have this article for everyone so long because people are like, technically, you know, you're that being more like, actually, and like some people will be like, well, actually, it's technically crypto. And it's like, yeah, but as things have moved and matured, there is a school of thought that there is crypto and people think about, we won't mention the shit coins by name. We shan't do that. But we shan't do that. Bitcoin is a completely different idea. And I think that's what some of those shit coins are, is people trying to replicate Bitcoin.

And those are where things get a little heavy because that's what gives everything else a bad name because yeah, people are getting repped on shit points like Hawktoon Girl did that coin that, I mean. So I can't let people approach this space not at all. And if they do, there's a lot of skepticism.

And I think the skepticism comes from I'm an artist. I'm a creative. That's math. What do you mean? Like I'm not gonna get that Which like so it's I think that's initial

Speaker 1 (38:12.905)

is pure man.

It's like...

It's similar to dyslexia, but with math. Yes.

So dyscalculia is a learning disability for people with numbers. So I can't do shit with numbers. It's great. It's like they dissolve in front of my eyes. But I force myself because I don't want to be, I don't know, I want to be more well-rounded, but I can't do things with numbers. So like I'm self-employed, which is fun because like I have spreadsheets and software, so I don't have to do any of the math myself, but like you can give me a calculator. It's hilarious. I'm just like, it and just going fuck, fuck, fuck. don't even look at it.

So I mean and that's the perfect example of so many misconceptions about Bitcoin and having to know how to mine things and how to do all the different Bitcoin stuff like you truly don't need to know all that back and stuff all you need to know is baseline in my opinion all you need to know is baseline what it is

Speaker 1 (39:04.814)

That's the Lynn Alden take. She's one of those better thought leaders in Bitcoin because she's just a great, like a macro economist. this is how Bitcoin gets nerdy. But she likens it to, and she actually said this about Nostra, but I think you could say the same thing about Bitcoin and Nostra and the value first is to where we're trying to get it to where anybody can use it and do these things easily and quickly and cheaply. But she explained, look, we all use email, right? Yeah.

You don't know how an SMTP server works. You don't know how anything works on the back end. know, and the Nostra space is still very small to where people are still openly talking about the tech. It's very developer heavy. And I think Bitcoin is getting less and less like that. There are more products that we can use in these spaces like Wave Lake, like Fountain, like as techo parts. What else did we use? we had Zap right out there. We were at the Bitcoin Commons. Shout out to Pled Lab.

car and thriller, the zine podcast. I was joining the take. but, so in this space we have, we have all the tools at our disposal. There's a variety of ways that you can do these things. Yes, you can self host. If you want to go through the work and you have the time and the inclination to go teach yourself self hosting and having a website and servers and nodes. And if you don't have the time, then you just want to get in like Catherine is doing.

Kissing babies and shaking hands.

Speaker 1 (40:31.116)

Right now. And that was the part of the interview where there was a crisis. Ainsley's mom stepped in, interrupted us, and she did this again actually in Nashville, which is a whole other story, and I'm gonna get there. So today I am recording present day, November of 2025. It's been about a month now since I interviewed Catherine a second time, but in Nashville at Bitcoin Park.

which I'm about to get to, but I wanna play the song that we were talking about specifically during that Austin interview that you just listened to last December, 2024. Let's start with Socrates.

Speaker 2 (41:22.99)

I don't wanna fight, let's just take a breath Maybe count to ten and we can apologize

More than we have Please just take my hand Make me understand What kind of man he can be Take my energy Make me feel complete It'd be nice if we could release Our anxiety Just call me Socrates As I'm questioning, wondering

Baby, hold me close, let me know tomorrow You'll be out the door

You

Speaker 2 (43:24.174)

Take my hand, make me understand what color mania can be Take my hand, complete, make it interesting Paint me nice and sweet,

Speaker 2 (43:57.77)

Close let me know tomorrow you'll be out the door

Speaker 1 (44:34.606)

So Socrates, great song. That's the song that we're talking about in the first part of the interview that we recorded again last December, 2024 in Austin, Texas. So that brings us to present day. Hey, I'm Heather Larson, back with a new season of Radio Detox. Welcome. So we're starting with this mega episode about Catherine. At the time we recorded this, there was one song and it was Socrates. Sometimes I think things happen for a reason. I got busy.

couldn't edit and release the first part of the interview this year. There was like only one episode of Radio Detox that came out that was in March. And so like after we recorded the interview and I didn't get to release it though, she released a second song, which I'm about to play, which is Lemons. So we'll play that in a moment and you can hear Lemons, right? So we're gonna go in order here, which the songs were released and which the interviews happened. So.

I'm telling this story now, it's actually kind of cool how this is working out. I kind of felt bad that I had to let the podcast go through well all of 2025 so far. I got really busy. That's another story. There were many life changes, right? And with Catherine not releasing any more new music after Lemons throughout all of 2025 until the other day, she put out new songs on Fountain. So we're gonna get to those as well. I'm gonna play them all. So about a month ago, we're going back to October 2025.

Catherine and I caught up again. It was unplanned. It was so awesome. I was in Nashville, Tennessee at Bitcoin Park. It was for Nashville 3.0. And who walks up to me and taps me on the shoulder there about Catherine? And I was like, girl, what are you up to? I heard you're traveling through Europe all summer. So we started catching up. We seized the moment and I said, let's sit down and record. And she was like, yeah, I was hoping you'd have your recorder with you. Gotta travel with the TASCAM in tow, right? I brought the big purse. Let's do this. So we get the recorder.

We go find a room, because time was of the essence. We get a room at Bitcoin Park, close the door, we're recording, and just has the last interview with Catherine ended with us being interrupted by Julie Costello. This one also got interrupted by Julie Costello. So this is an adventure that we are on where Julie Costello, love you Julie, always interrupts us. So I'm not gonna tell the story about the things that make.

Speaker 1 (46:51.19)

Julie interrupt us. There was this crisis, right, in Austin. And I'm not going to tell you the whole story because there's a documentary I think that gets could get featured in. Okay. Parker Worthington is working on this, documentary of what we did in Austin. And I think he's been traveling around the country and following all of these quote unquote value for value music events. I don't want to keep calling it value for value. It's independent music events.

that are kind of underground and grassroots and they pay artists and there's no easy name for that. this music thing that we're doing, right? So I'm just gonna call it like underground any music. I don't know, but you know, in case Parker Worthington puts that crisis into the documentary, I don't wanna ruin that part of the story. So I'm not gonna tell that story right now about the crisis. We'll save that for later. We'll save that for Parker. Shout out to Parker. So Julie interrupts.

us over and over, me and Catherine in our room, Bitcoin Park, and it's a good interview, and I'm about to get into it, because you get to hear from her in a way that catches up with her career, and what she thinks of this whole space, where we're combining the new technology of NOSTER with the old technology of RSS, and this is to the benefit of musicians like Catherine and others, and we get to hear her thoughts about all of that in the new interview that we just did in Nashville.

what's changed, what hasn't changed, what she would like to have changed from her artist point of view. So we're gonna get to that. But of course, know, Julie keeps interrupting, which let's just have a Julie Costello appreciation moment. I think she's the ultimate mom manager, a momager. I would say the best momager this side of Kris Jenner and probably in fact better than Kris Jenner.

Cause you know what, she's just so damn likable. I don't know, was Kris Jenner, I don't know her, I don't know her work. I just know that she's like the most famous momager and Julie is like the least famous momager, but I think she's the best. We wouldn't be doing any of this traveling around the world, traveling around the country, bringing music to the people online and empowering musicians with independent music and sound money. It would not be happening without the extensive behind the scenes work of Julie Costello.

Speaker 1 (49:05.302)

She doesn't like the attention. She's probably gonna get mad at me for mentioning her. She's not gonna let me interview her. This is my one and only chance to shout out Julie Costello in Phantom Power Music. And if you've ever seen and enjoyed, obviously, the music of Ainsley Costello, the person who does all the worky work stuff behind the scenes is Mama Ger Julie.

She deserves this big shout out. Every time I interview Catherine, I'm sure Julie will be there to interrupt us. So much love, Julie. My friend, let's play another Catherine song. And this was the second one that she released. So this is on Fountain FM. And if you're so moved by it, you got some money in your fountain wallet, you can send her little bit of money. It's called Bitcoin.

She gets it sent directly to her wallet. No middleman, there's nobody taking a cut and she chooses how that money is divided up. She is the musician, it's her music, she's the boss. You can tell from the first half of the interview that she shares the money with her producer, splits it down the middle. The technology does that automatically. So she doesn't have to handle that money for that producer. So you're not just paying one person, you're going to pay two people. It goes right to their wallets. It doesn't go through ASCAP, CSAC or BMI, it doesn't go through a record label.

doesn't go through anybody, not even the momager, right? Catherine does not have a momager or a manager. She is an independent artist in every way. It is your direct relationship with the artist and the people who help them make their music. So that should feel pretty good. I think it's a little bit more ethical way to consume music and pay for music than the endless monthly subscriptions. Of course, I pay for those too, but there's never been a time

where you could just pay an artist directly using the resources available to you on your phone. Now, you're using Fountain App, you got some money, you got some Bitcoin, you got a Bitcoin wallet, you got Fountain App, you're just getting it done. You get to write a little note when you do it. So it's not just sending money, it's money with a message. So tell Catherine that you love her song, send her little bit of money, and it doesn't matter what it's called, right? In some of the culture, the RSS culture calls it a boost, the Nostra culture calls it a zap.

Speaker 1 (51:20.946)

And since the dawn of time, I think we've called it TIPS. Tip the band, tip the artist. The idea is there. We're just doing it in a more technological, updated, fast kind of way. So without further ado, let's listen to Lemons.

you

Speaker 2 (51:45.474)

Not all run-ins from old Jinx.

Speaker 2 (52:17.978)

I need no sympathy, baby I'm not the one crying so Leave the peace in these walls I've built Save your gift

Speaker 2 (52:54.126)

We're to blame, but I still stay like Talk, give it to me straighter I'm not wasting energy, feelings caught Tell me do you want it or thought you had it so

Speaker 2 (53:29.09)

you

Speaker 2 (53:32.49)

Leave this peace in these words I've built

Speaker 2 (53:55.63)

Without illuminating to shed

Speaker 2 (54:03.662)

you

So let's get into some new songs from Katherine and we'll get into the next interview too. So this first song, these just came out the other day on Fountain. They tore up the trending charts and we love to see it because we love Katherine and we've been waiting for new music all year. We've been waiting for new radio detox all year too. yeah, Katherine and I are back with new stuff. And this next song is like, we get this soulful.

R &B stylings, but then we get her voice too. And I'm not talking about her singing voice. I'm talking about the voice that talks about what I'm thinking, maybe body image issues or social society and cultural issues, maybe around body. But see, I already did the interview before I heard the song. So this is just my interpretation of it. And that's the great thing about music, you'll interpret it another way. And you know, the third interview that I get with Catherine, we can ask her what.

the story behind the song is, but right now we don't know. So we just get to listen and enjoy Catherine singing body.

Speaker 2 (55:32.342)

Like Aphrodite

Speaker 2 (55:42.89)

very alarming

When I fit in two size 14 Shit must be exhausting Not understanding There's no difference between That girl and me As if she didn't need The love that I need So come correct And don't forget I might forgive But it depends

Common sense and present tense and monumental comfort Didn't say, didn't say it would be easy Didn't tell you how to treat me and tell you how to treat me I have a body that man-made statues of Got no time or space for adequate Give me something I can't get if it's not you

Express the issue of how I might have worked yesterday I'm starting to take resumes, hey Must be exhausting not understanding There's no difference between that girl and me As if she didn't need the love that I need

And don't forget I might forgive but it depends on common sense and present tense and monumental confidence I didn't say it would be easy Didn't tell you how to treat me And tell you how to treat me

Speaker 1 (57:54.52)

Well, I have a feeling that it's gonna be stuck in my head. And then there's another new song that's gonna be great that I think you're like, I think you're getting the vibe of Catherine. She's sultry, amazing voice. I've heard her do runs. I've heard her, she's got quite a range. And this next song has the sultriness and it's also got some reggae. I thought we were just gonna be friends. I thought we were gonna be friends, but this song tells a different story, doesn't it?

It's Catherine with Scoot.

Speaker 2 (58:48.334)

Your eyes tell me to undress I gotta scoot now, baby, out now, honey I thought we needed two talusas But further I digress

Speaker 2 (59:11.488)

Let me get this right You're onto me You've made up a page So casually If we wanted this

To be your scene Baby, you were like her I got out of school now baby, out now honey I thought we agreed to just be friends Your eyes tell me to undress

I gotta scoot now baby out now honey I thought we needed to tell the sense But further I'll tell our grand If we force the fire So casually Will the flame flee?

This is energy Logic seems to be her energy It's good, it's crafted, it's all I got a school now baby, I moved now honey I thought we agreed to

Just be friends, you're asking me to undress I got a school now, maybe out now, I thought we needed to tie loose ends But further I digress

Speaker 1 (01:01:13.016)

These songs by Catherine are great and I think you know what I'm gonna say. She needs to make her songs longer. That is my display name on Nostr. You can find me on Nostr as Heather Larson. All one word, that's Larson with an O. Or my display name is Make Songs Longer. I'm on Twitter at writer Heather L, the literal.

And I don't know where, we have a Radio Detox YouTube channel now that I'm gonna be working on to try to bring this info to the masses. Like there was a time a couple years ago when we all got in an Oscar and said this is better than traditional social media. And it is, obviously, but that didn't really bring in a lot of people. So I have done the thing where I go back out into the unkind world of toxic social media, like X, and I even paid for a stupid blue check because you can't actually get your message.

to the world there unless you pay for the stupid blue check, which is, you know, this is dumb. This is why we're working on Nostr. So to get more people interested in, educated in what we're doing here with Radio Detox, anybody can do a podcast like this. Yeah, it's not probably quick and easy, but if you care about music and you want to contribute to the space, there is definitely plenty for you to do. So come join us as I relaunch Radio Detox and doing music podcasts again.

I'm looking for the easiest, quickest way and I haven't found it yet. So whoever wants to come along and join me in this effort, you are more than welcome. It's really unpaid and thankless, but thanks. Thanks for being here and listening. So I'm relaunching the podcast right now using PodHome. Shout out to Barry for making a great product with PodHome that lets me do the podcasting 2.0 things.

It's only gonna cost me 16 bucks a month. It's not my entire tech stack. Obviously there's like Riverside, Hinton Perg. There's a lot going on here in order to make the podcast. So I appreciate you listening at all. Even if you just fast forward through the parts where I talk and go right to the music and that's awesome. But if you're listening and you're thinking, how do I do this? I want you to check out Pod Home. It is awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20.108)

That's gonna be pothome.fm. I don't get anything from telling you to go there. I just, I like the product. I'm checking out new things because RSS Blue has been absorbed now by Fountain, so I think it will be going away. So I'm checking out new products in the podcasting 2.0 space, and Pothome does that specific type of posting with the wallet switching so that you can play the music.

And the artists get the money. So there's a little effort involved here for podcasters. I think it is a better way to podcast. I think it's a better way to listen to music and be a fan. It's good for musicians. It's good for fans. It keeps us all independent. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. And we want more people in the space because that will give more incentive for the artists to come into the space. If there are more people playing their music and doing podcasting 2.0.

then we get to keep growing the space and that's awesome. So that I can keep playing more new music for you like this next new song from Catherine called Canvas.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51.566)

is not the answer to a prayer that you offer give me some grace please can't be a pastor doctor or lawyer mother

to the races, on too many won't see the return on what I'm catching give me some space please I can't be a deterger or teacher for

Speaker 2 (01:05:41.646)

Wasting all my energy and stuff Baiting me with pleasantries it's not Giving what you want to me I've gone Maybe my body is not your canvas

For you to shape or cover practice Give me some time please I can't be your tailor or tutor or waiter or my

you

you

Speaker 1 (01:06:43.64)

more new songs and then we'll get into the current present day 2025 interview with Katherine. Let's listen to her song relevance.

you

Speaker 2 (01:07:17.236)

still

Close to it Three years is sobering but I'm still noticing street signs As time goes by Your face in the clouds Years I should remember Tears I should've never needed

You should be the one I'm treated I'm forever changed By a circumstantial mellowness

Speaker 2 (01:08:07.694)

Most colored review is making me miss you

Your shift is clear and my exit is here As time goes by, your face it blinds

years i should remember tears i should have never needed fears that made me cower you should be the one retreated i'll forever change my circumstantial romance

Speaker 1 (01:09:20.109)

So in the second season of Radio Detox, I'm going to be playing with the format a little bit and this super long epic Catherine centered episode is gonna be the kickoff to that. before I would interview people and I would insert the songs into the interview. And so this time I did like.

interview and then songs and then second interview. So I think that'll work for this episode. I want to do some different video episodes where I'm not going to do the music and some of the video interviews because that defeats the purpose of doing podcasting 2.0 and the wallet switching technology only works with audio. It works with RSS. Here's the good news though.

we are working on a lot of different apps in Nostr, right? So I work in the Nostr Bitcoin world. I'm the rare breed of a full-time person working in this space with a lot of developers. So I'm gonna shout out all Nostr developers at large because after, I think it was exactly the day after we did the show in Austin last December, Adam Curry the next day said, you know what?

I think that RSS and NOSTER were separated at birth and they should be together. And I think things are getting better in this space. was Barry from pothome.fm who told me, you cause I had to look into it. I couldn't trust my homie on my other podcast, Soapbox Sessions, Derek Ross, right? I couldn't trust Derek cause he and I are like siblings at just five, but he was like, why are you still using your Heather Larson at fountain.fm?

for your boosts your zaps. Like, why are you doing that? I was like, because it's key send and you have to use key send. And he's like, no, you don't have to do that anymore. And so I checked with Barry and Barry was like, no, things are changing in the pod two-oh space pretty quickly. You can use an LN URL. Like you can use a lightning address. So I'm gonna do that. Probably use my strike.me address to get some podcast money off of this episode. So like, if you send me a couple sats, I'll be.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28.502)

really just experimenting to see if it works with a different wallet because I don't want to use Albee and Fountain. The two key send issues, I don't want to get into the technical weeds, but I think key send is a single point of failure because there are only two options and it's Fountain or Albee. So let's get to the point where we can use our lightning addresses. Like I could use a Speed Wallet, which I won't because I'm not a huge fan of Speed Wallet, but I'm probably going to use my Strike Wallet, right?

to get my podcast earnings. So if you send some sats to the podcast, that should go right this second to my strike wallet. I'm nervous, because I haven't done it before. But the point being to this really long story is that the podcasting 2.0 space is probably moving quickly, getting better. At some point, maybe we can nostrify this, which would be my vote. Nothing wrong with RSS. Can we do both?

Can we, do we have to do one or the other? I don't want to do one or the other. I want people to have choice. That's kind of the whole point. So at some point we'll find somebody who's better at flowing with explaining the technical aspects of this than I am. But I think things have already gotten better and people like Carnage, shout out to Carnage, the Doster dev. He's working on getting this to work with Doster somehow. So I'm probably gonna have to bother Carnage soon. You've been warned, Carnage. I'm coming for ya.

See if maybe, well, Carnage let me interview him, I don't know. But him and Derek Ross have been working on some things kind of like on their own. Derek started podster.org, P-O-D-S-T-R.org, where you can have your own little, you're still gonna have to do hosting, right? You can never get away from hosting, but you can have like a different way to have a website with a community and with Zaps, and that's what we built because we didn't want.

when we did Soapbox Sessions, my other podcast, we just didn't want to outsource the hosting, so we knew we could do it ourselves. you know, like we're using a rack in Alex Gleason's living room and podster.org. The Derek Ross built version, the vibe coded version is what Derek built for Soapbox Sessions. So that's the story behind that. That is the short story behind that. Like you probably should get on the Soapbox YouTube or just listen to Soapbox Sessions.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50.956)

if you want the longer version of that story. I tell everything in a very non-technical way. I wanna bring non-technical people into this space of podcasting 2.0, Nostr, getting paid with Bitcoin, whatever we end up calling this independent music and sand money thing. There's just no easy way to describe it all. So I'm kind of like trying to roll it out into little bite-sized pieces so you can kind of learn how this all goes together.

and the music being the most important part of that. So let's get into one more song from Katherine. And this is another one of her new ones. There's seven out there now. I'm so happy and excited that she is releasing new music. And what comes next is the name of this song. And what comes next after this song is gonna be the present day interview with Katherine, where we're going to talk about this technology, how she uses it.

why she uses it in the way that she does. And what she wants for this space, the direction she would like to see it take. And we're gonna get some fresh ideas from a real life, independent, Gen Z musician who's gigging in Nashville and recording once a week in Nashville. We're gonna get her point of view after her next song called, What Comes Next?

Speaker 2 (01:15:36.334)

I go for the bad one

The next one tried to make a woman of me Keep me like I was a trophy What can I say? Grass houses are his thing

Maybe I'll repent after I relent Before I forget my love is There seems to be a pattern in my ways So much so that it's obvious I live a life sober Man, doctor, what comes next?

The one before made me question my sins Someone so good I couldn't be his All I can say Couldn't hurt the last man

Maybe I'll repent after I really before I forget my love is There seems to be a pattern in my life so much so that I die a silent moment So let me die after what comes next

Speaker 2 (01:17:50.118)

There seems to be a pattern in my veins So much so that I am tired of it man, it's over, man Doctor, what comes next?

Speaker 1 (01:18:15.182)

Okay, so we're recording at Bitcoin Park in Nashville. It is Masterville 3.0, Saturday, October 25th. you know, last time we talked, and I haven't released it yet, but the last time we talked, we recorded you on your first podcast in Austin, Texas, in the green room or whatever room that was at Antone's. That was awesome. That was a lot of fun. so since...

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:18:39.906)

Since I imagine I will tack this on to the end of that interview as I put it out. You had released your first song on, I think was it found in a wave lake or both? I can't remember.

it was fountain. I haven't ventured into wave like just yet. I'm still kind of waiting for an integration between the two, which I know for like either between the two or more of like the whole idea about this space is like West walled gardens. and music for everyone and being able to pay artists what they deserve as well as give the listener a way to

That's good information

Speaker 2 (01:19:23.51)

interact with them. Yes. But I don't want to create another Spotify and Apple music and Amazon music and kind of that iteration. Yeah. And so as of right now, I'm just on Fountain. Awesome. Because that was what I was introduced to first.

There you go. you did it. so, so Sam, if you're listening.

Hey, no diss, no shame.

That's right. No, that's, that's valuable feedback. Cause I still feel like we are obviously in a very new space. And we're still, everybody is still building, you know, and then Derek made an app that plays both. So he made an app called ZapTrack. He vibed code in ZapTrack. Cause he just did it. He just did it like two weeks ago.

That's exciting.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03.03)

Derek Vienena.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13.326)

guy that you see and he's like, oh yeah, I went skydiving and then I just, went, I have an owl and then, oh yeah, that's my wife. And you're like.

Derek!

He is kind of like that,

ADHD. You're like, I just see him every few months and it's always entertaining.

I work with this guy now. Really? Yes, we work together at Snowbox. I get to deal with it every day. It's cracking me up. You get to. don't have to. I get to. You get to. get to. It is a smorgasbord of Derek Ross behaviors. It is truly special. Well, we started a podcast, too. Well, you started a podcast. But wait a minute. I'm getting ahead of us now. We're snowballing. I'm going to circle back to... Circle back.

Speaker 2 (01:20:40.512)

my god!

Speaker 1 (01:21:03.694)

circle back to Zap tracks that he made. It's supposed to play both.

Interesting. Is there like a... That's something where I would talk to him if there's an artist portal where like artists can release to both. Yes. Because that's also a main like barrier to entry for new artists.

an artist portal and I like that idea.

I mean, because Apple Music, I said that I don't want to replicate Apple Music and Spotify, but that doesn't mean that we can't draw the things that they've done right into what we're doing.

steal from what works and then break down and not do what hurt others.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44.334)

Right, like, cause Spotify and Apple Music and Amazon all have an artist app where you can track your own streams, you can release music, you can do those separate things. Which I don't know if you can release directly through the artist app, but something that would be cool is if there was an app that like Nostr has all these different profiles on multiple different...

platforms, you have an app that has a way to put music out directly from your phone instead of having to go from computer. And like you can go from, okay, I'm recording in the studio right now. I want to release this actually right now. And you can go from recording to in-app to direct to consumer literally within 20 minutes.

So I would not have thought about that use case. I would have thought there's this big ceremonial release where it has to come from the studio computer. And so you would just totally take the file from your phone and upload from there.

I mean, it'd be cool because I record every Tuesday and I have a guy that I work with that I really like. And it would be cool to almost streamline that process and say, okay, these are the demos. What five of these 10 do you guys really like? And then I'll go and cut those. And then I'll give you guys the final version. Like now I'm just kind of spitballing. But I think it'd be cool to kind of work with Finn now and have like lighting payments and

This is what we need to do though.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20.342)

all of that within it because if we can just move the needle to help artists but also redefine the system but not take away from the art, like that's the main...

Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:23:34.734)

Yeah, we can't sacrifice the art. Yeah, we want it to sound good. We want you guys to have what you need. Do you worry about intellectual property as because you're a little bit. Yeah, you're a solo artist, but you work with producers because I remember when you released that first song, you split it 50 50 with the producer of the song. Is that something that is? Is it a block that we don't have the IP portion of this completely figured out yet?

It's not a block, it's a calculated risk. Wow. Because at the end of the day, if you want to be on the forefront of something happening, you have to take that calculated risk to say in a few years when there could be laws and mandates and things protecting my intellectual property, I will want that to happen. But at the same time,

No.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31.136)

I know that it's not happening now, so I can't be upset if something were to happen. Yeah, you can't be too happy.

Can't beat your big. I just, think a little easier for you because you don't have a full band to split with.

Yes. I don't have band splits. do have, because I work with Jay or Jinx, who's like the main producer. But in those sessions, we have at least three or four different producers that come through the work at the studio. They just kind of like to hang out because we're all friends and they'll add something on it. And then there's like two or three musicians that will come and

at the end of the day we'll have one song that has like 10 people on it, whereas if you were in a band it would always be split between four or five. So it will always vary, whereas in my mind there's just a trade-off. Like you have constant splits or you have varying splits. You're always gonna have splits.

But you're always, you're always, but always to have you, since you're working with all of these people, have you taken this idea of getting paid in Bitcoin for music? Have you been able to take this back to people who have not heard about this, but let's face it, is the majority.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46.03)

Yes, I it's interesting because when I first got into this space and you can probably hear it in my voice in like the first podcast I was so excited so excited to bring this to like so many different people and I was like if I can just say it the right way they'll get it and if I can just dammit plate it no it's like yeah it's kind of like talking to a brick wall and

to wait for them to be ready.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15.694)

They kind of go, well, and then they bring up a bunch of different political things. And I'm like, OK.

That's our biggest marketing problem with what we do. I know. The stigmas. The identity politics and the stigmas that surround Bitcoin and the crypto people aren't helping us. So they're obnoxious.

And you know, don't really like it. There's certain things that I'm not in love with either. But that said, like, it's also hard to bring back what I've learned to people that I went to college with. Right. And say, okay, well, the time that we spent in college, and we were learning about X, Y, and Z about publishing and law and copyright and

together.

Speaker 2 (01:27:06.638)

business and all these different things. All valid, right? They're a little bit out of their field, but what about this? Can I pose you this? And a lot of times I'm met with, nah, kinda gimmicky. Bitcoin has been around forever.

The jadedness pops up early in the music biz.

very much like, well, I'm doing my own thing and I'm successful, so I don't need you anyways. Okay. I didn't say that you weren't successful. Right. I said that maybe we could add to your success.

That's the thing is it's kind of... I think we're at a stage where like, look, for some people this is working great. And we have those case studies for the majority of people. Like, I don't know that I can replicate, you know, Sarah Jade's success or Ang Lee's success. Like, it can be a supplement to the traditional music business right now. You know, like, cause you, you know, you record your music weekly, you're putting it out there, you're going to gigs, you travel like all summer.

You know, right? This is my heart anyway. so like you're working and, and you do this.

Speaker 2 (01:28:11.104)

Yes, this is definitely like right now I'm still a waitress. That is my quote unquote in the income. But that is to supplement my music, which I want to do. want to get Bitcoin is that same thing for music for me is that I'm currently in the music industry recording, releasing, writing and doing all of these rounds and

Bitcoin is the thing that I'm working for. So this is supplementing until I can get there. Like until Bitcoin is able to be the moneymaker and the thing that brings me the most money and I can take kind of the more traditional approach out of the picture. That's what I'm working on.

There you go. And it's afoot in both worlds right now. Yeah. I think that that is also true of Noster to switch gears and talk about Noster. I think you still as a musician probably still need that Instagram that every musician has. You still need it. But you want the Noster thing to work because hey, zaps are built in. You don't have to do the algorithm pleasing shenanigans. Yeah.

I mean...

Speaker 1 (01:29:26.37)

but also the audience isn't quite there on Nostra yet. And, you know, let's face it, we haven't quite gotten Nostra apps to 100 % of crowd pleasing. know, nobody's looking at like, we look at Wavelake and go, God, this is great. Or we look at Foundry and go, this is great. This is what we want. Which is also, you know, neither a perfect yet by any means. But I think Wavelake for one can stack up against Spotify or Apple. Yeah. You know, but, you know, I don't know how much the Nostra apps are 100 % close to being able to stack up against.

the things that people are used to. Like there's nothing on Nostra yet that does Instagram stories and people love Instagram.

No, there's, I think what Instagram kind of capitalized on very young is that they captured a young audience and then grew with them. So they were able to capture people lifelong. This market is completely different because you're going after people who have the brain capacity to understand what's going on. So you're not going after like the 12, 13 year olds with an hospital. No. Truly. Like, I mean, you could get there.

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:30:32.214)

Yeah. But it's not the main form.

They're not going to be interested in it. And there's also an area of responsibility. You have to have personal responsibility to hang on to your personal key. Yeah. you know, maybe 13-year-olds aren't into that. You know, like, you have to have, a password manager.

like you're

Speaker 2 (01:30:49.152)

Right. But I mean, the thing is, but, but we say that when I was in fifth grade, I was creating a username and password. Yeah. Everything. Like I, I knew how to do all of that because we grew up with technology.

Yeah, native digital natives.

So it could be five, 10 years, little Kelly's walk around with the digital key. And her digital key gets her school out, like food at lunch, at school. It gets her on the bus.

ten years from now for sure. Just not today. Not today. Yeah.

So it's hard to farm people and to kind of...

Speaker 1 (01:31:29.742)

Yeah, going into the... Noster is very much for early adopters right now, which you are one. So my question to Ainsley at Noster Valley, and remains the question that, I don't know if we have an answer to this. How do we get more Gen Z folks to embrace all of this technology that we're doing, whether it's Bitcoin, Noster, or both? How do we reach Gen Z?

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:59.704)

think it's a marketing issue. Like, just, think baseline, it's a marketing issue. Because at the end of the day, Gen Z is very punk, very much no government, very much I want to manage my own money. That's what we're doing. And it's exactly what an Oscar is. So like, it's just getting the right message to the right people, but doing it in a way that's not like...

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28.606)

underwriting TikTok or like underwriting things like you can't cuz I at one point posted a TikTok video trying to explain the Alster Bitcoin and all these things and this was also in the midst of when TikTok was like about to shut down and move right after Anton's and I posted a TikTok and I was like my gosh like people will get with this and the majority of the comments were

This would have been right after Ant-Man.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55.586)

I'm not falling for this TikTok lookalike. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not gonna jump ship to another thing. And I was like, okay. Maybe this was just not the right time. This was just maybe not the right time.

They were very married to TikTok. They were very much like, what are we going to do without the TikTok? And if we spun up, and people are working on vertical video, Nostra apps like Billboard from Next Block, and then there's show shows and testing, and people are spinning up those types of things, but how do you compete with years and years of TikTok? we know our lane. know we can't have that amount of content up overnight and variety. It'd be great.

I mean, would take... mean, marketing is a main thing. Money is also a thing. It's like if you have enough money, you do a huge Bitcoin show and you do like a festival type thing. Like a Monoroo or an Ultra or Country Thunder. Like you do something like that and you bring in artists that are willing to get on a ticket as...

Bitcoin or crypto performers and you do it that way and I think you just have to pull their audiences. But it would take an in-person thing because you can't, there's no marketing online for Nostr or for any sort of, like you have your market and you're speaking to the people who already know about you. But there's no marketing that you can really do on other social media apps because you're trying to be a social

Yeah. So the only reason that you're well, the only way that you can get people to come to you is in person and very punk. If you put up a punk show that was Nostre Punk and you brought out those people, you would have at least 25, like 2500 at that one show. Yeah. That would then download the app, become Nostre As B, that's the ideology as well.

Speaker 2 (01:35:01.08)

There's so many similarities that it's just reaching people with the right market.

Yeah, would think Country Thunder too. And we say so much that this is, you know, free of politics. It's agnostic or neutral. And, you know, we don't want to get into the identity politics. However, you know, having been to Country Thunder and seeing the audience, you know, that audience loves this kind of thing that like

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:26.83)

conservative beer, know, beer and guns, you know, don't turn on me kind of audience seems to really want this. And whether that's, don't know what to call it because we get into both sides of them in this country where there's this side versus that side. But I think when you start getting into, you know, the conservatives lead to the libertarians and there's some audience share there who kind of, they kind of get it to where it's like, okay, freedom money, freedom tech, freedom money is probably an easier sell because freedom tech is still...

I think it's kind of complicated if you're going to go out to a concert where everybody's drinking Budweiser and sometimes it gets a little... Right. I don't like that social media.

Freedom Tech!

Speaker 2 (01:36:09.12)

I have my monitor since the 80s.

Yeah, need to be having these conversations and suggestions, you know, because I want to tap, know, you, Gen Z, know, Katie and Ainsley and, know, the folks who there's very few of you young women who are on Noster can't say that.

I have gotten some interesting DMs or like the personal things and I just kind of my favorite is just to read them and not reply because You don't even read them but like you just the message will show that you've read it and you haven't said anything bad Just the ultimate like Paul, what are you saying? Yeah, what are you?

Bye!

Speaker 1 (01:36:43.874)

Got it, never eat them.

Speaker 1 (01:36:51.67)

Yeah, that's the ultimate fuck-

Speaker 1 (01:36:56.558)

I think that younger women deal with that problem more than those of us who are in our, I'm in my mid forties. So I'm just like, you know, I don't, I don't get that level of weirdness from master DMs or from men in general. Like even if I'm working with men face to face, I've seen to aged out of system where the men try that. Right? We've got at least 20 years to go, my friend.

Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:37:20.302)

Take me with you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:26.454)

You know, that's one of the things I've noticed is I'm getting older, but I really want the younger people to drive this because it is for you. And Gen Z is like, you know what, we are the punk generation. We are like, you know, fuck all this dumb stuff that's happened before us, before we came along, because we're not going to take it anymore. And that's what I like about you guys. You're like, you know, we're not going to get wasted every weekend. You know, your generation is drinking less alcohol.

Drinking less hot dog, but I don't know, we're doing less drugs.

But that's true. Well, you have something that didn't... Many of y'all have legal weed, which I did not have at that age. I was definitely in the illegal entertainment category. But I've been sober a long time too. know, my generation, you know, we had both, but just one was illegal. We also didn't have vaping yet. So I had to smoke real cigarettes. What a life, right?

Speaker 1 (01:38:28.046)

That's great. We need to get your generation some freedom. And that's kind of like why we're doing this is to get freedom tech into the hands that need it. Because if you guys don't have this, if you don't have that, you know this, I'm preaching with wire, but if you don't have that freedom tech and that freedom money, and you don't have the ability to, you know, organize a protest or say what you want.

and not have your speech censored as maybe there's more and more government overreach. If you guys don't have an avenue for that, you know what, because I'm in my mid-40s, I'm still young enough, but I also think about what happens to the kids after I'm gone, what happens to my nieces and my nephew, what happens if I croak and my energy is off this planet and you guys have no historical resource, you know.

Google being what it is, you know, there's there's something about having older people in your life and we know that, you know, my generation is the slack of generation, but you know, the one before us kind of kind of really screwed things up. And this is how we got here, you know, and so like, you guys being able to have the off ramp, the freedom to stay away from totalitarian control, the freedom to stay away.

and not be burned by like the 2008, 2009 financial crisis as we were. Like that would be really amazing for your generation to have an edge that even we didn't have. And so that's kind of what we're working for is we're all working for our kid. You know, kids your age. So we're all kind of working for the future for our kids. It's not about us anymore. Like you will reap the benefits of this.

I will see it in my lifetime, but you guys and after you, you're the generations that need this more. it's, you know, that's my, my Ted talk about who this is for and why we do this. I mean, because obviously there's like, there's not really a lot of money in this, you know, we're doing open source software here. You know, we're not doing this. It's, not Silicon Valley VC funded, you know, life that we're living. We're not trying to hit a night yoke here.

Speaker 2 (01:40:42.84)

Doesn't mean it doesn't have to be if you are Silicon Valley

We're going say no. certainly not going to say no. Speaking of Silicon Valley, well, have you seen what TIDAL has done for independent artists?

is our pitch.

Speaker 2 (01:41:01.614)

have not. The only reason I remember the title was like there was a little thing the title came out with like a player like a music player and like that's the only bell that rings whenever I hear that name.

They started allowing, I don't know if they do it in app, but you can upload your independent music to Tidal and then people can use Cash App to pay you in US dollars. So Ainsley did that and I can send her a dollar with Cash App. So it's not quite the Bitcoin Lightning Network. It's good idea.

Right. Closer.

like a connector. Like, you can't force people, well not force, but like, if you make people do that, it will be easier to push than pull a synoster or a system. like a Yeah, like a trinity wheels. Yeah. Because I don't know, like, for me, it's the connecting the people to the product, but also the idea is

bigger than just the product. So it's encompassing that. And that's been really hard. It's kind of like, you just need to bring the right people into the right space and even like Nashville, like this is a great spot.

Speaker 1 (01:42:28.514)

Here we are in Nashville talking about how do we get this to...

Right, like this is a great spot with the musicians, with the tech, with the people that know how to kind of put it in place. And I think it would be interesting to like see more events like this because the thing is, I looked up Bitcoin, I looked up Bitcoin Park, I looked up Bitcoin today prices, blah, blah, everything on Google on

to see if I would get any Google ads or any social media ads or anything that was targeted to me for Bitcoin Park because this was a big event. There's t-shirts made downstairs. There's lot of stuff for this event and I got nothing.

Yeah, because nobody's buying ads on Google. Nobody's buying, you know,

And if I'm somebody that's looking for an outlet or looking for a place for these ideas, I'm not having any of those things pop up for me. Like if there's no marketing towards it, how are you going to find this? Like I wouldn't have known about today.

Speaker 1 (01:43:30.978)

And if.

Speaker 1 (01:43:40.302)

This is the hill I'm going to die on. I'll say this publicly on my podcast is that we do a lot of these events. People find out about them if they're lucky because they get thrown together at the last minute. Nobody, nobody but me is a marketer. I obviously have my own marketing to do for companies that I work for. can't. I do what I can. Like I made the flyer.

Right. That's how it feels.

Speaker 1 (01:44:05.998)

You know, like for this event, like that you saw on Austin and Twitter. yeah, so I do what I can. but we, had squandered. Yeah. It was just, would somebody like to come intern for me? And I don't want people to work for free by any means, but if somebody wants to, need all the help we can get. But if somebody wants to, somebody wants to, to, to work for free, I'll give you, you know, all kinds of, you know, college support or whatever that I, that I can get. I'm not gonna pay for your college, but I'm just saying like, I will, you know, support your.

.

Speaker 1 (01:44:34.114)

your credits, your credit hours. But that's the biggest issue is that we throw things together at the last minute. There's no marketing on ramp more than like a week or two out. And we kind of put together a flyer. We're very punk.

Right. This is all very punk and it's the best. you just need to have the market for it. If there was a Belmont and Bitcoin Park event. Yes.

We're not reaching the right people.

Speaker 1 (01:45:07.95)

Hit the big college.

...Petrologists! Do the...

That's I want to do. Yeah, I want to ASU. I want to hit them all, you know. We all have a college in our backyard. That's where the young people are.

Also, young, advocated individuals are going to be more receptive to the ideas of bitch.

Yeah, literally anybody else. Yeah, thank you. Literally anybody else. Yeah, y'all aren't as jaded yet. I think your generation is pretty jaded. It's wisely on guard against stupidity.

Speaker 2 (01:45:41.134)

I mean, you go through what we grew up in, born in the wake of 2011. Grew up in the 2008 recession. crisis. Graduated high school into co-

god, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:45:50.478)

and now you've got the most inflation of it.

dealing with inflation and an authoritarian regime. So it's kind of like, okay, yeah,

Right? Three, I'm a little bit jaded. Just five bit. Yeah. How do you make future plants in the middle of survival? Right.

But I don't know. Like, it's all of that. And it's like, whoa, and I'm 23. Tryin'.

23. Can't say I'm not trying. So to sum it up, you and I met in December in Antones in Austin. We recorded a first podcast that I still haven't released because I've had a crazy year. we're going to put this all together as one. But what's your, we've obviously gotten your thoughts, but like to sum up the last year of your life coming into this.

Speaker 1 (01:46:48.46)

this space where we use Bitcoin and we use Nostr and we use RSS and we're trying to put all of this technology together for the benefit of the artists. This is your platform. What do want people to know about what you've learned in this last year and what you'd like to see next?

What I've learned is never expect anything to be concrete.

Yeah.

Because I mean, and that's referring to like the industry for knew about Bitcoin, that's referring to it for knew about Bitcoin. That's like, it's just you can't expect something to be concrete. And that's just life. But also, right, like especially this, it's kind of

period. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:47:34.45)

especially this time.

We're building the foundation. It's a little shaky, but we're trying to build a solid foundation.

And I think my main message would be if you want to be involved with how it's shaped now would be the time to get involved. Get involved? Seriously. You want to just enjoy the benefits and kind of see how it looks out. Wait a few minutes.

I mean, just...

Speaker 1 (01:48:00.846)

Yeah, well, I'm begging people to get involved. Please get involved. Build something. Shape something. Give us your input. Help me. Intern with me. I don't care. know, build an app.

something, build something, but.

Speaker 2 (01:48:11.79)

But I think what I'm saying is also, if you don't want to be involved, that's fine. But then you can't be the same person that was whining they didn't get Bitcoin.

Yeah, you can't complain about what we're building if you don't get involved. It's all open source, so it's surprisingly easy to get involved. So like, if you are a person who doesn't want to talk to people at all, and you want to chill on GitHub and Ripcode and build apps. There's something for everybody, I think, in this space. you're a Catherine, a Katie,

Talk to anyone.

Speaker 1 (01:48:46.294)

and you want to make music and put music out there. If you want to build the next Wave Lake app, talk to Sam Means. If you want to get into marketing this bizarre niche that I market and you want to learn about it and it's ridiculous and we don't even have all the tools we need as marketers yet, be my guest. If you want to do live music shows and...

What are you in

Derek and I work for a company called Soapbox and Derek is our dev rel and I'm the marketing director. And so we are working on bringing people to community in a variety of ways. You know, we have our soapbox technology and you know, you could build an app like Twitter and we call it Ditto. So you can make your own Ditto. That is one thing that you can do. We have an AI conversational AI builder named Shakespeare. So you can, you could build your music website with Shakespeare. You could

build a site that takes zaps. can create a band web page. There are a lot of applications, think, or use cases, I should say, for what you could build with Shakespeare. know, one thing that I would like to do is make a cool music site, know, like Rolling Stone for a new generation. But say Heather puts it up, right?

talking about myself in the foot. But you say I put up a website for Radio Detox and you can go there and see Radio Detox, my music recommendations. And then you go, that's cool, but I don't like her music. I could do this better with music I like. Be my guest, I'll have it there for you to remix the app or the site, whatever you want to call it. And you can put up your own, you know, Katie's soul music website. That's cool. Something to promote your podcast and your music and customize it. So

Speaker 1 (01:50:29.806)

This is how I want to get an army of Gen Z's. Like here's the tools. They're easy to use, remixed with AI, you know, using our Shakespeare. And so we have the technology. We're going to be working on creating some more, you know, community apps that will solve a lot of these community problems we have with community building. Because let's face it, I think we all want our own community. We want a niche community. We don't want to see...

I think a lot of people don't want to see content that doesn't appeal to them. and ads, my God, you know, and so like, you know, if you can build your own version, there we go. Like, you could ideally, if you wanted to build, know, Katie version of Twitter using ditto, you know, you could call it, you know, Alex Leeson has his own, he calls it Gleesonator, you know, so you could call it Katie-nator or something.

Yeah, no, yeah.

I drink.

Speaker 1 (01:51:23.942)

I'm not saying don't do that because that sounds terrible. you could kind of like, we want to put the power into your hands to create the kind of thing that you want your way and empower you with a completely open source AI builder so that you're not stuck in an expensive subscription. like you mentioned, you're still, you know, trying to support a music career with a day job. And so like we want things to be more easy.

less time consuming, more affordable. We don't want you to be locked into something and like you don't have to understand code, but you will own your own code. You will be able to take that with you. And then when you make it big and you've got a web team, you can just say, Hey, I made this site. Here's the code from it. I made it in Shakespeare. You know, make it, make it better. I made it big. Here's a full bunch of money.

ideally in a perfect world, it goes on like this. But that's what we do at Soapbox, is we want to empower people to be able to build their own community. And especially somebody like you who's going to have a fan base to manage. Maybe you want to build a ticketing site. There's going to be so much that you would be able to do by just telling Shakespeare what to build. And then we have Derek to answer all my dumb questions about it.

The next thing that I would build in that specifically for music, like just taking it down that way, is if there's a way to get directly connected to like theaters and venues. Like if you were to get in the app and say, I'm trying, like tell Shakespeare I'm planning a tour from New York to Miami in two months.

So, ooh.

Speaker 2 (01:53:07.79)

What venues would I go to and where would I contact?

I wonder if it would, we'll ask Derek Ross in the Vibe Coding Workshop today, be like, hey, this is an idea we came up with. It'll be after you leave today. It'll be with 5.15 as he starts it. yeah, so yeah, well, what we need to do is just task Derek Ross with making more apps. Derek, because he calls it nerd sniping where he's- Nerd sniping. He calls it a nerd snipe where, oh, I was going to do this one thing, but then I got nerd sniped and now I'm going to make an app for Katie. You know, so like-

That's kind of where we're at is like, I feel like we have this amazing technology, we've hardly scratched the surface because we just need to get it in more hands and have people work with it and go, okay, I'm a rock musician or okay, I'm a soul singer. Because like one thing that you could build with it would be like, you could put up...

like a little iPad kiosk if you wanted to and have, you know, an app on there where people just scan a QR code. Like we saw downstairs where people can scan a QR code on our system, you know, pay for a NostraVille 3.0 t-shirt, or maybe Katie's like join my fan club website, here's a QR code, or, you know, buy this shirt, buy this ticket, my tour is coming up, like I want to find a way to like, with all these events that we do, to keep people coming back. Because I feel like we throw together an event.

and then we market it barely and then people show up so we get enough crowd that it's deemed a success. And then what happens next?

Speaker 2 (01:54:36.236)

Right, and then there's no resources.

Yeah, so I gave a talk at Nostra Valley last week, but I put in a website with all the list of Nostra websites, just Nostra for creators, you know, if you, you know, like I can teach yoga on Nostra. Yeah. Right. So I use HiveTalk. So how do people find that out? Do they know that it's hivetalk.org? The apps are always getting improved. Does the devs work on them? So sometimes like, do I do HiveTalk honey? Do I do HiveTalk vanilla? And ideally we want to use

HiveTalk Honey, because that's the new one. But if you go to the original website where some of these things are listed, maybe it's not up to date. So let me just make it up. Let me make something that's easy to give to people so that they can say, OK, what was that thing she said again? Oh, yeah, Scandor QR code. It's on my phone. Good. I can go look at that website and see if I'm a blogger what app I want to use.

Like, I think a directional. You could call it 411.

There you go. gosh, you know that?

Speaker 2 (01:55:34.926)

I used to call 411. Landline. That's So I would call 411 to like call my friends houses.

I feel like they cut the live stream again. my god.

Speaker 1 (01:55:45.23)

I your generation so totally did not ever ask for one.

I remember calling, because also my mom made me. She was like, you don't know how your friends phone them? No, but you have their mom's phone number. She was like, no, you can call 411.

Shit.

Speaker 1 (01:56:03.374)

Okay, we're not that technologically far apart from each other. I like that.

My parents, granted, my parents are also for generation. we kind of, they kind of skipped a generation with.

Abzadum

Speaker 1 (01:56:21.728)

Okay, you have boomer skills.

So I was raised well, I was raised more like a millennial than I was in Gen Z. like I am 23 but I say good grief and golly gee in my daily

You don't talk like that.

For sometimes like for goodness gracious. I say that every day. Yeah Would you? Do you think a gen Z that says gap?

Like, every Gen Z I know, like, A and Z included, says like, T. T. T not.

Speaker 2 (01:56:53.518)

Yeah. Yeah, it's sleigh.

Yeah, exactly. From the boots to the whatever. There we go. I you guys have all had to tell me that 35 times every time I see you, how to say it. And I still like, this is how you know. Okay. So we have to end the podcast once again. And thank you for entertaining me with all of your thoughts and ideas. We're going put this out in the world and see if people...

Mostly the house food stuff

Speaker 2 (01:57:08.768)

I do need to go to work.

Speaker 2 (01:57:19.886)

Somebody take him. Somebody take him. I'm giving you permission.

Yes, we need that in this space. Kathleen, I love you. I to see you. And in Nashville. I know. I never see you anywhere but You're in my city. Thank God for Nashville and Nassar and all this.

love you more. It's so good.

Speaker 2 (01:57:35.811)

the US.